The German foreign ministry, which commissioned the study after suspecting it was being targeted by bots, said the findings highlighted the need for governments to systematically tackle the growing number of disinformation campaigns and recognise the effect they could have on elections.
One honest question I have is how effective such a campaign really is. Sometimes I feel like Russian disinformation is used as an excuse when public opinion is genuinely shifting away from the government line.
You saw this as well during the BLM protests in the US, where some liberals accused Russia of instigating the riots.
I live in Germany and I know multiple people that think the best thing to do right now is just accept the losses, get a peace deal, and stop the violence. And I don’t think they are on X.
Just to clarify I’m not saying Russia isn’t trying or that no measures should be taken to limit obviously foreign propaganda, I’m just wondering if it really has that much of an effect.
I don’t understand this weariness you describe. We aren’t even at war, we are comfortably sitting back letting Ukraine do the fighting. All we have to do is throw some money and equipment their way and they essentially fight for our geopolitical interests by proxy.
What’s more, who the fuck are we to tell them to settle and be done with the war, when clearly Russia doesn’t respect any status quo or existing border. Imagine the outrage if it was us at war with, say, France over northrhine-westphalia and everyone was urging us to just concede that territory for the sake of peace.
We should throw billions at Ukraine and place whole orders with our MIC for them, and afterwards still say thank you very much. Because they die we don’t have to.
If others were funding Germany’s war then it would be reasonable to heed their advice lest they withdraw the funding.
The weariness comes from the fact that the people actually dying or getting maimed for life, don’t want to fight anymore. They are getting forcefully conscripted. Most Ukrainians that volunteered are already dead or wounded.
It’s not the only disinformation in Germany. Many in eastern Germany still follow Russian State Propaganda in Form of Sputnik News, Voice of Russia, some small “independent thinkers” websites etc to get “indepent” information, or “a second view”
The problem with this idea is Russia’s track record of broken deals (like accepting Ukraine’s territorial integrity, then invading) and aggressive ambitions (greetings to our Baltic allies). Chances are the last two points are nothing but false hopes and all that remains is “accept the losses”, while Russia prepares to invade the next neighbor. All the good points are also the untrustworthy points. We kind of tried this idea when they took Crimea, and see where it got us.
Russia is an independent actor on the world stage, with a huge military, a huge nuclear arsenal, and a huge economy (ppp). We have to find a way to live peacefully with them because the alternative is a nuclear holocaust.
Russia started a war of aggression, which is THE primary war crime, and should not go unpunished. So relations can probably not be normalized until the current leadership is replaced (which granted might take a while), but a cease fire at least stops the killing.
Literally no one said this…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_and_Black_Lives_Matter
All I’m seeing in this article is that ruskie trollfarms cranked out both pro and con propaganda, just like they do for literally everything. It is legit actually part of FSB standard practice LONG before they tried to meme. Just look at how their own government news does it constantly.
But I don’t see any parts where it says liberals accused russia of starting the riots.
I see a lot of info about studies that showed that those groups did output a ridiculous amount of memes intending to rile up folks, but I don’t see evidence of liberals blaming the riots on russia.
It’s funny, you’re using russian troll farm techniques and now I’m going to spend a few minutes going over your post history.
I don’t have a sourced archive of all the stupid shit I come across on the internet, but if you google “Russia BLM” there are many articles from liberal newspapers being concerned about the worrying influence of Russia on BLM.
And here is a British politician spreading conspiracy theories about Russia and BLM:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-ferguson-russia/
Have fun in my post history, maybe if you take the first letter of every post it spells out “IM A RUSSIAN TROLL”.
But again, EVEN THEN, just paying a few people to go out to protest doesn’t start a protest.
They put in effort to make it worse, sure, that’s what they do.
But they didn’t start it. Hell technically BLM didn’t even start it just rode the wave of already high strung public sentiment.
Oh I don’t think you are a russian troll, but I DO think you are a troll that isn’t creative enough to make your own tactics so borrow the well publicly documented format of russian state sponsored trolling.
Something tells me you’ve spent scholarly time reading the Gentleman’s guide to forum disruption.
You’ve literally accused everybody who disagrees with you of either trolling or lying. I think you need a break from the Internet.
I literally haven’t, but you want to make the discussion look that way.
I’m not the troll here.
Again, take a break. Enjoy the block list
You stated no one said Russia instigated BLM riots and I gave you a clear example, now you’re just moving the goalposts.
And not everyone with a different worldview than you is a troll, people have different opinions that’s why politics exists.
No you didn’t give a ‘clear example’, and no I am not moving any goalposts. That’s your side’s trick.
You can go play your word games with someone else.
Just because a troll farm paid 2 people to break windows doesn’t mean that those two people started the riot. How fuckdamn naive do you even have to be to believe this?
you don’t need to be on X too be touched by that, X is the media to create a “thinking”, people talk and share the fake news in other platforms
So you know 3 nutjobs that believe the propaganda, good job mate. They may not be on Xitter, but I bet you they are on Telegram, where the worst of Xitter’s content is aggregated.
Russia is destabilizing the west by influencing people like you, which creates a divide. Ever heard of the term “divide and conquer”? It’s a pretty serious thing.
Yes I have heard of that phrase, as have most people I think.
You also should ask them what to do when Russia will try the trick again somewhere else…
Or better, ask them what part of Germany they are ready to drop off to some other state…
Russia was very explicit in what would happen if the west kept promising NATO membership to Ukraine, and then it did as promised. No such situation exists for any current NATO or EU member state.
To add to this Russia and Ukraine were already de facto at war since 2014, promising a military alliance to a country at war without expecting escalation is just plain stupid.
And just to reiterate, starting a war of aggression is the principal war crime and should not go without consequences. But we do need to live together with Russia on one continent and this requires concessions from both sides, because the alternative is the mass death and destruction that we now see in Ukraine.
Also the Budapest Memorandum (1994) was very explicit. But it seems that the fact that Russia infringed it is not really important to you.
Like not respecting a signed agreement. But some sort of military alliance was already set 20 years earlier with the Budapest Memorandum, so no, USA and Uk just stick to the agreement they signed.
And NATO arguarbly has problems with someone attacking a neighbour after signing a treaty which ensures protection and acknowledges its sovereignty.
So, only Ukraine should do some concessions ? What concessions should be made by Russia, in your opinion ? Just stop a war they started ? And learn the lesson that EU/NATO just give up just because we need to live together in the name of peaceful living ?
But let me ask something: if we concede for the “peaceful living”, aside to become the last ally someone want, what would stop Russia (or anyone else for that matter) to try to pull the same trick 5 years from now ? Putin attacked Ukraine again because we make clear to him that he can do whatever he want without the fear of any consequences. I don’t think this is a particularly intelligent thing to do.
And again, which part of your country are you prepared to concede to some attacking actor just for the peaceful living you seems to care so much about ?
Russia was very explicit in its intent of breaking that Memorandum, it does not change the fact that promising NATO was dangerous and stupid. And it was also cynical because NATO membership was impossible so long as the conflict in the Donbas was ongoing, effectively forcing Russia to never back down there.
I’m not saying the Russian government are the good guys or the Western governments are the bad guys, I am saying that big states with big armies have interests and the will to use violence to attain those interests, this is how the world works and we should act accordingly. So if a nuclear power says it is willing to go to war over an alliance membership, it should be taken serious and a peaceful solution should be sought.
Right now I am in favour of a cease fire, this does not mean the occupied territories become Russian, it just means the fighting stops. And at this stage of the war I don’t think one can say with confidence that a continued conflict increases the chance of Ukraine gaining its territories back. All one can say with confidence is that less people die with a cease fire.
On your last question: I don’t have a country, I am a citizen. And if the government (foreign or native) treats me bad enough I might be willing to resist them. But I sure as hell would not want to be conscripted (by any government) to be send into the meat grinder. And if you think differently (and wouldn’t mind a night of bad sleep) I invite you to read up on the fait of Ukrainian conscripts; there is a reason Ukraine has trouble finding new recruits, a very good reason.
Nobody is forcing Russia to never back down. For start they could have respected the memorandum and let Ukraine decide what to do as sovereign nation. Nobody forced Russia to invade the Donbas at the time, only their fear that NATO would do who know what. Or the fact that Putin need external enemies to blame for everything bad in Russia
Oh yes, that will go well. Following your reasoning, to end the war in Ukraine we just need that NATO declare that it is willing to use nuclear weapons over Ukraine joining the alliance. Damn, call the NATO HQ and propose it, the war will be over by the weekend.
While I am all in for a peaceful solution I am also aware that to have peace you need to have both sides to want it, otherwise after a “give me this or else” there will be a “give me that or else”. So if Russia says it is willing to go to war, the answer should be “let’s talk about this and solve peacefully, but keep in mind that if we really go to war over this, we will stand and both of us will be fucked up”.
Then I don’t know how you can make a peace deal with a nation who already demonstrated to be willing to ignore the deal it sign if it is conventient to them. (not that they are the only ones to be honest)
And then ? What make you think that a) Russia respect it and b) Russia would concede something ?
Don’t play games, you know exactly what I am asking and the fact that you try so hard to avoid to give a clear answer tell me much more about you than any answer you can give.
Which leads to the question: since the enemy is brutal we must just concede everything it want ?
And btw, I had read and listen to much worst stories.
Russia wanted to place nukes on Cuba, the US said ‘if you do this there will be war’ so Russia backed down. This did not lead to an all out invasion of Russia, this lead to a de escalation and Billions of people not dying.
I gave you my honest answer, let me ask you a question in return. Why are you not volunteering? Ukraine has a man power problem because even the Ukrainians don’t want to die for this cause. So if it’s so important, why don’t you go there and stand on a Russian landmine so a Ukrainian conscript doesn’t have to.
It is a little more complex than this.
US deployed Jupiter nuclear missiles in Italy and Turkey and URSS, to retaliate, deployed R-12 and R-14 ballistic missiles to Cuba. And before taking any action, US denied the deployment of URSS missiles.
When US aknowledged it, the first option suggested to Kennedy was a air strike on Cuba and an invasion.
What happened is that US put in place what was basically a naval blockade of Cuba (even if they call quarantine to avoid war related terms) and then started to talk.
The end result was that officially URSS retired the missiles and bombers from Cuba, and US agree to non invade Cuba and secretly retired the missiles deployed in Turkey (not sure about Italy).
But I am sure that you understand that this worked exactly because the “if you do this there will be war” was a credible threat ans was sustained by actions (the blockade)
Now, in Ukraine if you propose a cease fire what actually can put on the table to make Russia back down from the invasion ? A deal which will be ignored in [choose your number] years ? Let Russia keep what they gained and go without repercussions so they can pull the trick again in [choose your number] years ? Do you really think that Ukraine would accept to lose part of their terrirories (which btw are the ones witn more resources like gas and oil) ?
I agree with you, we should find a way to stop the war. I simply don’t see how being accommodating with Russia will make it when the root cause of this war is that we let Russia think that they can do whatever they want without any consequences.
I am too old and no more phisically fit.
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