Israeli airstrikes killed dozens of people including two families in both Gaza and Lebanon, while Hezbollah fired a volley of 55 rockets into northern Israel in response.
World leaders urged restraint and tried to frame the ceasefire negotiations as heading in a positive direction.
But in an interview with Sky News, the leader of Hamas in Lebanon told us no progress had been made so far at the talks and the two sides appear to be just as far apart as ever.
Hamas is not at the negotiations but messages and updates have been passed on to them on the sidelines.
It’s obvious you don’t agree otherwise you would not have made your initial statement. Doesn’t make you correct. All those listed are “Sovereign Nations” that identify as having a “people who have spread or been dispersed from their homeland”. Ie.: Ethnostates.
You want to have a nuanced take on the subject? By all means, but, generally calling for the dissolution of all ethnostates is not ‘nuanced’. What you mean to say is “Israeli Ethnostate” which is what I’m calling out.
You have not demonstrated that simply having citizens that live outside of the confines of their home state means that they come from an ethnostate, and even if it was, pointing that out doesn’t make the problems I (or anyone else) has with what the Israeli government is doing go away; hence the nuance of opposing ethnostates in general. If all the Jews in the world voluntarily moved to Israel, eliminating the diaspora, would that make Israel any less of an ethnostate?
In the case of the Israeli ethnostate, which I believe you are inferring things I have not implied, one can be opposed to the form of government in charge without being opposed to Jews having a country. Israel can exist without apartheid, without stealing land and other property from people of different ethnicities within (and without) their borders, and they can defend themselves without the wholesale slaughter and other human rights violations we’ve seen in the most recent conflict. One can call for a change in leadership positions, the leadership itself, dissolution of the current leadership party, dissolution of the existing governmental structure, anything in between or something else entirely, all while also calling for similar (or different) things from the Palestinian side as well, and in no way does holding one or more of those positions mean that one thinks what happened on October 7th or in any previous conflict between those parties is justified.
As an American, my opinions are obviously biased by our history of doing fucked up things to people that don’t look like those in power, and having participated in society for the last few decades drives home the importance of not including every citizen when condemning the actions of leadership.
What’s happening over there is wrong and it needs to stop, and an international coalition needs to be in charge of investigating everything that has happened and punishing the wrongdoers. Pretend I’m on whatever side you want, that’s what needs to happen.
You are confusing state policies with the State makeup and using an absurd version of the definition. The important facet of its definition is the peoples it identifies with are not associated necessarily to citizenship.
When the Russian government blames an invasion on russian peoples (identified solely by their language and culture) being mistreated in other countries they are an Ethnostate. If a nation welcomes its diaspora back and assures their citizenship solely based on their being the same peoples, they are an Ethnostate (most all the other nations I’ve listed) and it is reasonable to see that this definition holds whether they are 100% successful or not.
When you agreed that “All ethnostates should be dismantled” which ones came to your mind?
I’ll only bring this up because you mentioned being American, that the US is actually on the precipice of becoming an Ethnostate based on common rhetoric used in their politics (American is becoming a cultural identity independent of citizenship).
I have not said anything that argues what is happening over their needs to continue. Just that I’d also take issue if you were arguing American Politics is immoral and so democracies need to be dismantled.
Ethnostate - a state that is dominated by members of a single ethnic group (editted in because your oxford link is broken)
Could you name a country that would not qualify as an ethnostate by your definition? We’re clearly using different definitions of ethnostate, and I’m trying to understand yours, although the definition you linked includes a key word that I think supports my position: dominate. I also think that my definition isn’t absurd, but whatever you want to call it, any state that explicitly identifies one or more ethnic groups over others should not exist. America is flirting with this now, and probably every nation on earth has at least some tendency towards it, which is why we must be on guard and oppose it wherever it shows its ugly head.
I don’t see how merely having an ethnicity or culture as the predominant group in a country would qualify it as an ethnostate unless the government uses it as an excuse to oppress those that are not in that selected group(s).
If I said “all murder should be illegal”, do I have to have every conceivable instance in mind before I can make that declaration? We can whittle down my opinions through argument, for example to see if I think non-human animals should be included, or if killing in self-defense should be considered murder, but those kinds of things would not negate the original declaration, unless in doing so I changed my mind. And it’s fair that you’re trying to get me to do just that, but so far you haven’t been very persuasive.
I think you’re conflating things a little bit here. I think a more apt analogy would be saying if the American government took the position that Mexico was US territory and invaded with the military, or settlements, or used its power to disenfranchise American citizens of Mexican heritage, I would agree that _that_ government should be abolished. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed, and the same form of government could be reinstated without the oppression, or even just voting out the people that put those measures in place. These kinds of things all have the same result, and all could be called dismantling the government, or the patriarchy, or whatever else is the problem.
America, Belgium, Israel, Russia, the Vatican… anywhere people are oppressed with official backing for things that are out of their control, cannot be just, and those systems (be it the whole government, a department, a policy, etc.)
Again, I think our disagreements hinge on this definitional difference. I think your definition for ethnostate (as I understand it) is too broad to have bearing in the discussion. I think you’re conflating an ethnostate with an ethnicity. Having a nation made up of exclusively (for argument’s sake) one ethnicity isn’t necessarily an ethnostate, but a nation exclusively _for_ one ethnicity is.
That’s what I’m arguing against. Using “ethnostate” in the broader meaning you seem to be advocating for unnecessarily complicates the arguments and allows the potential for racism into a place it shouldn’t be. It gives the people that would seek to use racism as a weapon a foothold into a discussion they should be excluded from.
People arguing against Israel’s government (or the government’s actions or whatever else) are not necessarily arguing against the concept of Israel (and if they were, I’d be against that), and using this broader definition allows bad actors to disrupt efforts to reduce the harm being perpetrated by interjecting a very emotionally charged element where it doesn’t belong. Racism may be (I think it is) the root of the problem, but focusing on the “ism” here is like fighting the idea of fire rather than the flames. We’re trying to stop people from being burned first, and then deal with the flames after.
I have other things I need to be doing, so I’m done here for now. Thanks for taking the time to engage with me.
Yes, easily. Canada. You would be hard pressed to find someone outside of Canada that says they ‘identify as Canadian’ that isn’t a citizen or just trying to conceal their actual citizenship.
This is where the fundamental issue is imo. You presuppose oppression as part of your definition and that is not included in what dictionaries define it as. Yes, differing ethnicities are often a source of… ‘conflict’, but that is not necessarily the case and this is what I’m trying to emphasize. There are numerous nations who have an ethnic identity that aren’t oppressive to others as I already listed.
IMO you meant to declare “oppressive regimes” as demanding dismantling which I absolutely agree with, and currently most Theocracies and Ethnostates in the Middle East region qualify.
No, and I didn’t ask you too. But, I think due to the clear issue with how we are each defining ‘Ethnostate’ you providing one other example aside from Israel is reasonable.
No, I was showing how you are conflating things with that example. In your breakdown you state that which I exactly agree with: “I would agree that that government should be abolished. That doesn’t mean democracy has failed” but you are saying exactly that when you use ‘Ethnostates’. Israeli government failed so Ethnostates should be dismantled.
In conclusion, there are many justifiably proud ethnicities out there, some of which governments identify as, who aren’t oppressive so we should be careful not to generalize to the point cultural identification as a whole becomes the Bad.
I identify as Canadian and am not currently a Canadian citizen. Some of my family does as well.
Dang, that was easy! Is it time to move the goal posts yet?
So what are you actually that you don’t want everyone to know?
What? I’m a U.S. citizen. Why would I hide that?
Travelling abroad then. Cool beans.