That’s cool and all, but GDP is related to… You guessed it. Inflation.

I recognize that Republicans overemphasized GDP but it’s a chief metric for a reason. If our top line GDP drops it will absolutely be a problem.

If you want to bring up easy inflation gremlins into your argument, be my guest. But inflation is already a weak point for Democrats and I expect y’all to get hammered on it even harder moving forward.

Medicare For All is not free healthcare, as in on the government’s dime, it is entirely paid for by taxes.

Yeah, no shit sherlock. Socialist / Communist countries like Cuba also pay for Health Care.

That doesn’t change the fact that several important examples (Soviet Union, Cuba, and now most recently, Venezuela) have collapsed… or are currently collapsing under that load and those costs.

We know plenty of examples of countries who have done that. My question is why the fuck do you want to bring it to the USA?

By having free healthcare for all you actually save money if basically no other change is made.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-02/57637-Single-Payer-Systems.pdf

In this analysis, we found that economic output would be between 0.3 percent lower and 1.8 percent higher than the benchmark economy 10 years after the single-payer system was implemented, without incorporating the effects of financing the system. Under a single-payer system, workers would choose to work fewer hours, on average, despite higher wages because the reduction in health insurance premiums and OOP expenses would generate a positive wealth effect that allowed households to spend their time on activities other than paid work and maintain the same standard of living. If the system was financed with an income or payroll tax, gross domestic product (GDP) would be between approximately 1.0 percent and 10 percent lower by 2030, depending on the specification of the single-payer system and the details of the financing policy.

Sounds like we pay by having a loss of GDP measured between 1% to 10%. That’s rather substantial.

CBO is the non-partisan accountants of the US Senate/House. They are our best estimate on the true costs of various programs.

Except the racists did vote for Biden in 2020, despite Harris being the VP.

Arizona ain’t exactly a happy-go-lucky civil rights state. Do you really have assurances that Arizona goes to Kamala if she’s on the top of the ticket?

Yeah, and Medicare / Social Security are already going bankrupt by 2040.

A gross expansion of those programs will make them go bankrupt even faster. You need to explain how to raise money for a “Medicare for All” program… and not just “Well fuck Taiwan / Phillipines / Far East / Ukraine / everyone else in the world”.

We’re going to have our hands full just keeping the programs available over the next few decades, and you want to expand them?

The fuck do I hear Bernie saying “Medicare for All” ?

That’s literally free Healthcare as his top-of-the-line discussion point for the last decade.

All of this could easily be paid by taxing the wealthy and reducing military spending. Would that be a problem for you?

Where does Ukraine and Taiwan fit in that reduced military spending?

Ah right, Bernie is also isolationist. He probably doesn’t give a shit. And even if we don’t support Israel (I know how the left feels about that), we the USA need to continue to patrol the Red Sea vs not just the Houthis, but also Somali Pirates and other threats.

Military spending is going up, by any realistic discussion. Ukraine is only heating up, and Taiwan is likely getting hotter and hotter as China literally cuts off Filipino fingers and uses them to bully others in the Far East. If yall think peace will happen by reducing US Military spending at this juncture, you’re losing my vote.

Bonus points: I’m also Filipino. So consider myself, and my family, very interested in hearing what the Democrats actually have to say about far-east stability / Taiwan / China’s increasingly aggressive actions.

Military spending is going up, and not because anyone wants war. But because its necessary to keep the peace. USA has no control over China or Russia, we only have control over our own spending. And we must keep our spending up with them as they get more aggressive.

I’m an Anti-Trump Republican. I’m quite interested in seeing what yall’s plan is to fight Trump this fall, and frankly, I’m not impressed with what I’m seeing in this topic yet.

Hopefully you all figure something out by next week. And if not next week, the week after that. But your time is short, and time is ticking.

I’m likely voting for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is. But none of this internal Democrats’s chaos is my responsibility or my problem. I’m just here to point out that you have a large degree of my support from being anti-Trump, but I can’t go so far left as Bernie (or some other progressives you got).

That’s really all I’m here to point out.

In any case, figure out a name. Otherwise Democrats will lose. And figure out a name before you get rid of Biden/Kamala. You’re throwing away a decent candidate with a decent anti-Trump record for literally nobody right now.

We can just leave you all behind, and give voters a candidate they like. A progressive candidate.

Okay. Name the candidate.

Except we both know you don’t have a name, and that’s why you’re going through this exercise of avoiding uncomfortable truths.

Go get that name, start pushing that name consistently, start saying [Insert Specific Name Here] is a better choice than Biden and MAYBE you have a chance.

But for now, you’re just giving Republicans in general a field day and a ton of joy by attacking Biden.

I listed two options I think would work for me:

1. Biden

2. Kamala (using Biden as a shield)

Of course, #1 and #2 are basically identical. So the easiest thing for the Democrats to do is just lean into #2.

In any case, I think this discussion is still useful to have. Whoever you pick needs to win Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia like Biden did vs Trump. Do you know of any candidate who can perform similarly to Biden in these states?

You’re just a Republican here to tell us no matter what Biden is the only option besides trump?

I’m a Republican here wondering if yall actually have a plan, or if this is another one of those “Occupy Wall Street” situations where a bunch of Republicans get voted in a few months after yall’s temper tantrum. (Occupy Wall Street was 2011. And we all know how 2012, 2014, and 2016 went immediately afterwards).

For better or worse, you know you need me and my perspective on this matter. Lest you lose Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Arizona and let Trump take the victory.

If yall Occupy Wall Street / kill your own political chances again this year because you got freaked out that Biden was acting as old as any 80+ year old would… okay, you deserve the loss that’s coming to you. But before you make an irreversible mistake, lets talk through this. I want Trump to lose as much as you do.

Note: I’m not necessarily against you changing candidates this late in the game. But I want to know what your overall plans are, and why you actually think that improves your political chances.

Lets put it this way.

Do you know how Elon Musk tricks his dumbass followers that they’re all going to Mars? And its so ridiculous that no one actually seriously talks about the overall plan?

That’s Bernie Sanders. No one seriously debates him because its so far out. Seeing a couple of followers get strung up in Bernie’s moonshots is whatever, its going to happen. But nothing will come from it, and Bernie knows that. (Much like how Elon knows all the bullshit he spews is nothing either).

I get that its a popular way to get a niche following. But when we’re talking about a real Presidential candidate, hopes and dreams aren’t quite good enough. You’ll need to talk about things that are ya know, at least close to political reality.

Or if Elon Musk is a bad example, consider how the Abortion debate played out. Back 10 years ago, it wasn’t really a real discussion point. Today, it is, and now its suddenly a problem for Republicans because the implementation details of Abortion bans are really fucking stupid.

Same thing with Bernie. By the time Bernie is in office, its too late to realize that it was all bullshittery and the numbers simply don’t line up.

Sounds like the party should have let an open and fair primary happen…

Its yall’s problem. I’m a Republican. I barely know the Democratic ticket.

But who did best in the Primaries anyway? Do you think they can seriously unify the party and make a strong anti-Trump candidate?

He’s literally running as a socialist.

Free housing, free health care, free everything. It sounds good until you look at Venezuela.

When we point out… oh… I dunno… how Venezuela collapses because of government takeover as private entities or their other socialist policies (which directly have similarities to Bernie’s discussion points), yall just ignore us.

We’re seriously having issues coming up with a budget where Social Security does fine over the next 20 years, and Bernie over here is reaching to the far, far, far extreme and going “Not only Free Social Security, but Free Housing and Health Care on top of it”. Okaaaaaaayyyyyyy. Lets talk about the taxes needed to get that funded.

Hell, can we even start with the taxes we need to keep Social Security going?

And you can see the problem right after that. Bernie is fully unrealistic. Its the benefit of being on the flank, Bernie can promise the world because he doesn’t actually have to worry about the details of his proposals.

Exactly.

So making Kamala the top of the ticket does nothing but energize the racists to vote against her.

There is no point putting Kamala front and center. Just have Biden resign in January after serving as a political shield for Kamala.

No kidding, if y’all put Bernie in as Democrat pick I’m voting fucking Trump.

The other ones (Kamala, Buttigege and Newcom) I might be fine with. But 100% Bernie is far left bullshit I for one am not putting up with. And no, we ain’t gonna go with an even older candidate who is far more extreme.

EDIT: I’m a Republican. You have me on some candidates. Newcom is… a stretch but I can imagine myself voting for him vs Trump, but not much else. Kamala and Buttigege I can be fine with but I don’t think they can win Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan.

Bernie? He’s too far left and very extreme in my eyes. Bernie (and his cohort of Occupy Wall Street dumbasses) don’t even understand how the world works, how families react to some of these policies or whatever. It’d be an instant and immediate loss for the Democrats. Sorry to say. He’s so far left I personally need to vote against that. You’re going too far.

Biden was bad for the first 10 minutes. By the 40 minute mark he was fine but he already lost the audience and the tiny attention span of modern Americans is evident.

That’s… Whatever. I get it. We’re in the tiktok age of short discussions. Expect more of this moving forward.

Biden shouldn’t drop out until a solid plan moving forward is established.

Do we even know if a Democrat can unify the party if he drops out? Or will the replacement be worse?

As I’ve pointed out in other topics: people need to start listing names, and I need to start seeing those names consolidate into one obvious choice. IMO, Newcom, Kamala and Buttigege are out as non-starters.

Kamalas best chance is for Biden to hold the election and then promise to resign on January 2025 for example. Which I’m not particularly against but y’all ignore the racism of Pennsylvania and Arizona voters at your own peril. Biden serves as a useful shield for Kamala in this instance.

Buttigege is worse. An openly gay man in this age where Don’t Say Gay is entering mainstream is a political mistake. Newcom is all sorts of compromised on both left and right issues.

I agree with a push for EV for new cars.

I agree with more environmentally friendly regulations because I’m a moderate Republican.

But EVs are not necessarily something I can get behind. The EV Hummer emits more carbon than a normal ICE Honda Civic. When you “Democrats” are so blinded by your EV love that you start harming the country and causing more carbon pollution from your 8000lb inefficient EVs… and yet write the laws to encourage them anyway, it becomes blatantly obvious that yall have also just been captured by the EV manufacturers rather than actually caring about the environment anymore.

A serious environmental bill would be… well… like Biden’s bill. Something I can get behind and support because its actually based on environmental standards rather than blatantly handing out money to EV manufacturers.

Biden has proven himself to be… well not a conservative… but at least someone who cares about the fundamentals of the regulations he pushes. He’s not someone I can 100% agree with, but he’s far better of a candidate than pretty much every other Democrat I’ve seen.

If yall are going to push environmental standards, at least have them make sense. With how Newsom pushed his ACCII standard, its utterly shit.

I agree that Biden doesn’t sound good on stage. But there’s actions, regulations, and details with how Biden actually governs. These details are far better than many other politicians.

In any case, if the Democrats have lost faith in Biden, figure out a replacement before you get rid of him. He’s not as bad as the mass media thinks. There’s reasons why the far-right are thinking that the mass-media is “tricking them”, because we all see that Biden is actually someone who is moderate enough to see the details and nuances of the laws. But obviously, Biden can’t win this without Democrats support either, so whatever. Do what you want.

It seems to me, from my more conservative/moderate perspective, that your best chance is to stick with Biden. But I don’t have a pulse on what the left feels overall.

Definitely don’t cut Biden out for Kamala. Instead, just run Kamala more as a strong VP (possibly Presidential) candidate. People will be asking for more questions about Kamala moving forward.

The plan for “Kamala” is that Biden resigns in January 2025 after the election. Its something everyone would innately understand (Biden stays just for the rest of the election, but we get Kamala). Its the underlying assumption of most voters anyway.

I think that’s your next best bet. Because I don’t think Kamala can actually run and succeed on the top of the ticket. So having a bit of that weird indirection could be the last push you need to get the more racist to vote for her (albeit indirectly).

A vote for Biden is practically a vote for Kamala, so Kamala is something I’ve already accepted. I don’t think it will do much favors though because she’s much more divisive and I know plenty of racists who will NOT vote for Kamala and actively vote for Trump instead. So its not so much me you have to worry about Kamala, but some other fence-sitters I know of.

If yall Democrats don’t think Biden is going to last all 4 years, then its all Kamala in the long run anyway.

Newsom

You’re going to lose Michigan over Advance Clean Cars II, which is so extreme its even banned hybrids by 2035 (despite the fact that many hybrids have more environmental friendliness than cars like Hummer EV).

There’s a lot of stupid here, and honestly Biden has handled the situation far better and more reasonably than many Democratic Governors on issues like this.

Sure sure.

So who’s your pick for President? Start listing names. Lets see if you get any traction.

The democrats have already lost and I want them to know why

I’m a Republican FYI. But I am an anti-Trump Republican. Do you think you can list a name of someone that both you and I’d vote for?

It isn’t new and is honestly exhausting to talk about.

And yet talking about Biden’s advanced age is new and not exhausting to talk about?

Because let me tell you one thing: the discussion you’ve chosen to get worked up about, plays to your political opponent.