There are no ethical choices under first-past-the-post voting. We must instead make a decision that reduces the most harm.

  • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    2 months ago

    I’m not sure voting will do anything about that

    We have a full-blown fascist party and a right-wing liberal party that has shown itself willing to capitulate in every way to said party

    Directly or indirectly, Project 2025 is coming, it seems

    The United States needs to cease to exist before it’s too late

    • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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      2 months ago

      We need to change the United States into a socialist country with unimpeded majority rule before it is too late. Our only chance to do that is by delaying the fascist takeover for another four years. The United States becoming a christo-fascist dictatorship would be disastrous for everyone not just the US. Authoritarian dictatorships would start carving up the world into spheres of influence. Millions of people would die from dictators enacting genocide and ethnic cleansing in their spheres of influence.

      • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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        2 months ago

        I don’t think that voting for the same two parties is going to change that. Those two parties got us into this; they aren’t going to get us out.

        • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          2 months ago

          The Democrats are not going to get us out of this, but we need time to convince people that socialism is the answer to our economic problems. We are going to have to elect socialist politicians. We need our democracy, as flawed as it is, in order to do that.

          • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            You might be interested in reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels. Ideas take hold in a population based on their material conditions, not by “convincing them.” This was tried numerous times in the past, all of them abject failures.

            Yes, convincing people that Socialism is good is a good thing to do, but that isn’t going to be what makes or breaks the movement.

            • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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              2 months ago

              In the US, people are attempting grass roots movements to enact progressive change. To do this we need as many people to vote as possible for the most progressive candidates available to correct for the overrepresentation of Republicans. To get more people to vote for progressives we have to convince them that progressive and socialist ideas have merit.

              Convincing people is essential to the modern progressive movement. This is because living under neoliberalism inherently conditions people to reject systemic change to political and economic systems and thus by extension they are conditioned to reject socialism. If you’ve ever talked to people in person about socialism you’ve undoubtedly heard the phrase “socialism doesn’t work” without any supporting evidence or maybe a reference to the Soviet Union collapsing.

              This is what socialist theory gets wrong. A person’s material conditions do not suddenly make them a socialist or any other ideologue. Ideas have to be internalized and adopted one at a time by a person. All a person’s material conditions do is make a person look for answers to their problems. On their own, a person attempts to solve their problems with the tools they’ve been given by the system they live under. In the case of the US, that system is neoliberalism. They work three jobs, work overtime, work themselves sick even. I’ve heard people quoted as saying something along the lines of, “I did everything I was supposed to.” As in they played by what they thought were the rules of capitalism and don’t realize that the extraction of their wealth is the goal of the system.

              Fascists understand this need to educate people. They rush to exploit desperate people who are losing everything under capitalism. They present them with their ideas, primarily that some out-group is the source of their problems. They blast the airwaves with propaganda to brainwash people by trapping them in information silos. They get out the vote to advance fascists causes. This is how the fascist movement, that has existed since the 30’s in America, has been growing in America since Regan.

              Neoliberalism makes people desperate enough that they will try anything, especially fascism when presented with it. It’s easy for people to think other people dying is the answer to their problems. When in fact our future depends on us adopting better economic and political ideas. Also, neoliberalism tends to obsess over civility politics and a strict adherence to law and order. Thus even people who aren’t fascists themselves don’t balk at the totalitarian and/or authoritarian nature of the fascist regime they end up in. They either won’t notice the difference or if they do assume it was a natural correction to what our society is ‘supposed to be’. While living in a neoliberal society, people end up thinking that either the systems they live under can’t be changed or even that they shouldn’t be changed. Rather than convincing people to change the system, the fascists convince people to remove other people. Thus they bypass people’s acquired resistance to societal change. No where in this, do people naturally internalize and adopt socialist ideas. People who believe in progressive and socialist ideas have to get these ideas in front of people’s eyes so that they have a chance to mull them over.

              We need to reach out to people by taking advantage of the Internet 2.0, social media, which is not something that was available in the 20th century. We need to convince people that fascism is a self-destructive ideology. That neoliberalism, in a vacuum, inevitably leads to fascism because of the societal and material conditions it imposes. People double down on what they know and make a more extreme and worse version of it, instead of radically changing it. And that socialism is the answer to people’s economic problems.

              • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                -Electoralism is nice, but has historically been extremely ineffective. This is because the parties in power will be the ones that can best raise funds from the people with the most money.

                -Yes, I have spoken with many people about Socialism, I am familiar.

                -See, this is exactly why you need to read theory. No, Socialism does not say that people magically gain Socialist ideas based on their material conditions, but that they are susceptible to them. That’s why the US has a vast amount of reactionaries, the US is an Imperialist state super-exploiting the third world for super-profits, creating a labor aristocracy.

                Please, read theory. You are clearly well-intentioned, but you don’t actually understand societal mechanics and thus have a Utopian mindset. You’re again confidently incorrect.

                • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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                  2 months ago

                  Democracy is the best political system that we have and it has been the most effective system we’ve ever had. Populist grassroot movements have fundamentally challenged the notion that only political parties can raise money. Trump is going to end up raising a ton of money because of he made Truth Social public. His supporters are going to end up driving up the stock price like Wallstreetbets did with GameStop stock.

                  but that they are susceptible to them

                  This is what I’m saying the flaw in the theory is. It’s the reverse of what we would want. Neoliberalism makes people susceptible to fascism and resistant to socialism. That’s why people have this knee jerk reaction to socialism and are sleep walking into fascism. We have to actively correct for this before the fascists complete their takeover.

                  Also, I like reading theory. But I want to apply what I learn to my life.

                  • Cowbee@lemmy.ml
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                    2 months ago

                    What form of Democracy? In what metric is it the most effective? The US isn’t particularly democratic, but absolutely helps the ruling class.

                    Please explain why it is a “flaw” in Socialist theory, and not just something you dislike. Neoliberalism does not make people susceptible to fascism, crumbling Capitalism does that. People have a knee-jerk reaction to Socialism in the US because they are a part of the Labor Aristocracy, a status that would not change even if the US became a Social Democracy.

                    I understand that you like to read theory, I am just curious why you are intent on rejecting all of it in favor of your personal vibes. Have you read any Anarchist or Marxist theory, or just liberal theory?

      • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        2 months ago

        This is certainly a defensible position, yes. I’m just not so sure we’re going to avoid the christo-fascist dictatorship with the Democrats. They forever capitulate to our christo-fascist party, and they themselves are authoritarian at heart. Just look at the White House and its support for genocide, border fascism, subjugation of protestors, defending of an inequitable hierarchical economic system that relies on forced labor, and those are just the first examples that come to mind

        • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          2 months ago

          I think the Democrats are not a great political party. I’m registered independent. They are the only mainstream political party for pursuing progressive change that we have at the moment. We have to take our chances with the Democrats because it’s the clearest path to a better future that we have.

          We do need to adopt socialist policies as a country in addition to that though. If we stick with neoliberalism then we are going to keep having this problem. The fascist movement will inevitably grow as the wealth disparity gets worse in the US. People are going to be looking for solutions to their problems, but neoliberalism inherently denies them the tools to fix the systemic issues they face. Neoliberals cling to civility politics and value property over justice for people to name a few. Fascism will provide them with easy, but incorrect, solutions in the form of out-groups to hate. The answer to our problems is socialism, but we need time to convince people.

          I know it’s a long shot, because people are effectively conditioned from living in a neoliberal society to reject socialism without any evidence. But we have to try. The only way this gets better is convincing people that socialist ideas have merit while neoliberal and fascist ideas do not. People’s lives depend on nations developing and maintaining inclusive political and economic institutions. We are going to need to have this ideological reckoning at some point, so we might as well have it sooner rather than later.

          Trying and then failing presents the same consequences as not trying. So we might as well do it now.

          • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            2 months ago

            This sounds like you want to implement social changes within the existing system. This is the lie of progressives and radlibs. It will never work. We need to dissolve the United States of America. There is nothing here worth salvaging, save the people.

            • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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              2 months ago

              This sounds like you want to implement social changes within the existing system. This is the lie of progressives and radlibs. It will never work.

              No, I want to radically change the system. Doing that of course involves using the system. We need to move from liberal democracy to social democracy. And our democracy must be fixed to have majority rule. It can work, but nothing is guaranteed. This is no different than how a revolution can succeed, but has no guaranteed outcome. As long as we have a democracy we might as well use it.

              We need to dissolve the United States of America. There is nothing here worth salvaging, save the people.

              Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities.

              There is no saving the people without inclusive political and economic institutions. If we value people then we must fix the systems they depend on to live.

              • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                2 months ago

                from liberal democracy to social democracy

                Social democracy is a farce. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs

                Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities

                Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit

                Edit: I see in your comment history you calling yourself a “progressive.” You’re lying now and saying leftist. I think you’re completely untrustworthy.

                • ToastedPlanet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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                  2 months ago

                  Social democracy is a farce. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs

                  It’s a political ideology with a set of ideas and policies. Social democracies have existed in Nordic countries for decades. How they have done is debatable, but they do exist.

                  Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit

                  I recommend Why Nations Fail. It’s been really good so far, but I’m still only half way through. So far, they seem to have missed that capitalism is inherently extractive and thus always at odds with an inclusive political institution like democracy. Private corporations are inherently incentivized by profit margins to undermine democracy. To remove regulations, oversight, taxes, etc. This is the contradiction of liberal democracy that social democracy solves. By adopting socialism, so the workers own the companies they work for, workers are included in both the nation’s political and economic intuitions. Since only the worker class exists, there is no one being incentivized to undermine the people’s institutions.

                  I hope neoliberals like Biden starts saying stuff like that, that would be awesome.

          • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            2 months ago

            I do get a lot of liberal anger sent right to my inbox

            Sure wish they’d direct some of that rage toward the people who are killing us and our planet, but I suppose I’m an easier target lol

    • Dippy@beehaw.org
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      2 months ago

      It’s not just about president, but also cabinet positions. And Bidens cabinet is pretty decent. Trumps cabinet is awful

      • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        2 months ago

        Which members of his cabinet are trying to cease funding of Israel and how?

        Which ones are actively opposing border fascism?

        Which ones want to defund the racist police?

        Which ones want to replace the inherently destructive economic system?

        Which members of his cabinet believe housing is a basic human right?

        Which support the immediate release of all those wrongly incarcerated for unjust reasons such as drugs?

        Which support the immediate cessation of our reliance on slave labor?

        Which support the removal of the barriers to communists and anarchists becoming citizens?

        There is nothing salvagable about the United States. When you say Biden’s cabinet is “pretty decent,” you’re doing so from a position of blind privilege. They may be good for certain demographics, but even though I’m living paycheck to paycheck, I’m still in the upper crust of this awful system. I’ve not seen one “pretty decent” person in Washington. The closest would be, say, people like Ilhan Omar, AOC, and Sanders, but even they are moderately right-wing and ultimately support a system that will forever oppress marginalized groups until it is forcibly removed.

        • Dippy@beehaw.org
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          Bruh there are a multitude of issues that the cabinet handles. As much as what’s happening in Palestine is abhorrent, there are in fact other important things happening everywhere all the time. If you look at only one single issue, then you are blind to a great many things. And if you neglect the fact that one side would also handle that particular issue with even more bloodlust, then you’re just not a serious person.

          • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            2 months ago

            This is downplaying a genocide, and it’s really cold and gross to refer to a fucking genocide as “one single issue”

            Pretty easy not to fund a genocide, eh? Just … do fucking nothing, and you’ve succeeded

            You liberals love to act like it’s such a high bar to clear to just not commit atrocities, and it’s absolutely appalling

            Not to mention that I listed a whole slew of atrocities Democrats are complicit in, and those are just off the top of my kinda tired brain. “One single issue” my ass

            • Dippy@beehaw.org
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              2 months ago

              You can either choose to give a little support to the better part of our awful system in our awful world

              Or you can stay in your fantasy land where the 2 parties are absolutely identical and your Itty bitty push back is more effective

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                Oh my mistake, the party that capitulates unceasingly to the christo-fascist party and in some cases even extends their fascist policies (more immigrants deported under Biden than under Trump, etc.) is absolutely so much different than the christo-fascist party itself! We should be very grateful for all they’ve done for us

                • Dippy@beehaw.org
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                  2 months ago

                  I’ll be sure to save this for when my trans ass is thrown in a gulag by trump and I can show the immigrants in there with me that you thought everything would be same either way.

                  • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                    2 months ago

                    I’ll be sure to let you know when Biden deports my gay immigrant husband

                    Got a secret for you: The Democrats would run us over with a tank if it were politically convenient. You think a party that’s ok with child murder will protect our marginalized asses? Think again.

                  • Zuberi 👀@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    2 months ago

                    Biden doesn’t give 2 shits about trans rights…

                    You genuinely think the old-ass catholic man cares (outside of expanding your future military drafts)?