The only way for libertarianism to work is if every human had only good intentions. Since that’s simply never going to happen libertarianism will never work. Just my opinion feel free to disagree.
I personally don’t fully agree. Libertarianism just doesn’t work at all. It is not even a complete system from a logical sense. It falls apart when faced with basic scrutiny, or they just theorize a system that’s basically the same as a central government but with a private entity name stamped on it.
It is an ideology stemming from a basic principle, but they sadly don’t seem to think of the entire system as a whole.
Funny how that someone is often the same who assumes humanity is flawless when libertarianism! Could it be that those people are just greedy and selfish hypocrites? Nah!
Which is a very uninformed (or intentionally misleading) thing to say, because Communism from it’s very beginning has always assumed that there are bad actors and always will be, hence the whole dictatorship of the proletariat thing.
The idea (in theory) was that once the proleteriat seizes power, they would act akin to a dictator in ancient Rome, who would be given the extraordinary powers to handle extraordinary circumstances (such as, in this case, the (re)construction of society). It’s not implying totalitarian rule.
It’s also the state power to oppress counter revolutionaries and the former high class, often through violence and forced labour. That to me is a form of dictatorship, even if it does provide better conditions and freedom to much more people than the newly oppressed.
I’m not saying it to praise it or condemn it, I just think it’s a fact at this point.
Communism wont work because it will never be implemented. If a country ever implements true communism it will experience extreme brain drain and be left with only the most unskilled people.
If a country ever implements true communism it will experience extreme brain drain and be left with only the most unskilled people.
I’m not sure where you got this idea from. I’m not particularly informed on the subject, but when I look up the dictionary definition of communism, I get this:
a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
Emphasis mine. If people with more ability are paid more, then they shouldn’t be flocking out of the country, right?
Why even work hard if you cant spend the money to own something/start a business. What will you spend the money on? The good of humanity? Get out of of here with that bullshit. If my country inplements communism im leaving on a first plane to a place where my skills will benefit me.
My understanding, however limited, is that “property” means something different in this context. Essentially, it means things like real estate and businesses, things that make money. You can own food, clothes, a TV, watches, a car, whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t make money.
If you wanted to start a business, you probably could, and you wouldn’t need to pay for it. The State would own the business, and you would be paid to run that business. This absolves you of all the risk associated with it, and you get paid more than a grocery store shelf stocker because you’re doing a harder job, and thus demonstrating greater ability.
So you’re dependant on the government and can’t (not allowed to) do anything about it. Sounds great. My car can make money, my computer can make money, but i guess im not allowed to do it if big daddy Lenin doesn’t want me to.
“Communism won’t work because I only work for selfish gain so everyone else must be the same as me. Anyone who says they’d work for non-selfish reasons must be lying because I’m selfish and everyone else must be just like me. And if they set up a society where selfishness wasn’t the main motivator, I’d be out of there to go where I could still be selfish. Therefore communism is bullshit.”
Communist societies have had their problems but this has never been a good argument.
It’s ok comrade. Uninformed peoole often says so, but the braindrain in communism has been accouted for. A bit of a barbed wire, some dogs, a few guys with daddy issues and a gun will stop any brains crossing the border. /s
Except freedom of information and freedom of action are two of the first things to die without regulation. Company towns and crooked newspapers are hallmarks of low-regulation.
It’s easier to vote bad people out of positions of power in a powerful state than it is to prevent them from abusing executive roles in powerful conglomerates.
Is it still libertarianism if those freedoms don’t exist anymore? I don’t think libertarians argue for no regulations.
Regarding the bad people, the trick is that bad people don’t look bad, much like captured markets offer the illusion of choice. So it’s difficult to vote them out.
The thing is that we argue different moments in development. You compare the correction of the corrupted states whereas I was talking about maintaining the functioning states.
It’s strictly speaking not libertarian, but libertarianism is a left wing ideology and the post is clearly referring to the right wing self-ascribed “libertarians” who do in fact argue against regulations roughly indiscriminately…
I never said it’s easy to vote them out, I said it’s easier than holding corrupt private executives accountable, for the same captured market illusion of choice reasons.
Don’t understand what you’re trying to say in the last part, don’t think your assessment really reflects my goals, sorry.
There can be rough “libertarians” but I think most don’t want to dismantle a libertarian state but instead want to create one. A lost opportunity where left and right could meet.
To me, the meme is not clearly right wing because the clown looks like the joker.
Let me shift the last part a bit. Corrupt executives are expected. That’s why freedom is important so that nobody is locked in with them. The same cannot be said for civil servants. As long as a party covers important topics, it can be corrupt in many other areas and voters cannot change anything.
I just don’t see the distinction. Without a government with actual regulatory teeth, those corrupt executives are just as liable to lock people in. Dismantling state power just gives those executives more opportunities to abuse their power. You can’t reduce government and expect private interests to not fill the vacuum. The concept that private executives with no voter accountability would be less corrupt than politicians is wholly ridiculous.
Those executives can also use the state for abuse. It’s easier to get tax money with one government contract than having to sell something to all citizens. Or remember those epi pens. Regulations can be used to massively increase profits.
The point of free markets is that executives can be corrupt. Instead of voting every 5 years, customers can immediately react and buy somewhere else.
You may be right that private interests don’t immediately fill up a government vacuum. With the internet, times may have changed and it could be easy for citizens to coordinate.
It’s just like socialism; great concept, but impossible to perfectly implement. That said, I’d still prefer a system where I maintain independence and freedom than any alternative since humans are inherently are own largest problems.
I’d prefer a system similar to what we have in germany right now as it is a mix of socialism and capitalism in a way that reduces the exploitation that free market capitalism brings. Complete freedom in market almost always leads to exploitation which is terrible
How exactly does Germany reduce exploitation from capitalism? Is it labor laws? I would like to remind you that having social programs and laws that benefit the working class is not socialism.
Maybe saying socialist is an overstatement i just think that our current system is a step in the right direction as there are laws in place to reduce exploitation and improve the situation for workers. It is still very flawed and i think it could be better but there are many places where it is bad, the US for example
Respectfully, I think the opposite. I think, for the most part, a free® market naturally benefits humans with good intentions and harms those with bad intentions.
For example, let’s say in a free market, somebody wanted to start a business with horrible working conditions, horrible salary, horrible everything. Now, if the economy is real bad then people might work there, but for the most part, that business is going to fail because people won’t work there, and would choose other jobs instead. So in this case, a free market actually incentivizes “good intentions”. The business owner will have to improve work conditions, salary, etc. so that people will work there instead of elsewhere.
And one of the important aspects of a free market is the ability to start a competing business. If there was a company with overall poor working conditions and salary, it would highly incentivize someone to start a new company with better conditions, because they could pull in all the workers from the other company.
And look, I’m not saying this is fool proof and works 100% of the time, and I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a healthy amount of regulation. But if you compare this to an economic system where businesses are run by the government, you can simply just be stuck with shitty work conditions and shitty salary, and not be able to do anything about it.
That’s fine to disagree. I used to believe this back when I took Econ classes in college, every Econ professor is a libertarian lmao. I just don’t think a free market would punish bad actors. Tons of people turn a blind eye to anything as long as costs are cheap
That only works when worker are less replaceable and desperate. Their are a lots of open job positions today but most pay less than the cost of living.
Lots of open job positions is very healthy for the economy, it gives the worker the ability to choose, and it makes companies have to compete. A ton of companies are literally being forced to increase their wages in order to get enough employees.
I’m not saying it’s unhealthly I am just saying they don’t help if they don’t pay above the cost of living. Sure you can get a job paying 15 USD but that isn’t even going to cover rent + utilities. So for now your stuck with your job and don’t have the option to switch.
My concern is that “bad product” to the consumer is mostly a matter of price and quality; environmental impact, legality, and even employee safety rank much lower with the average person as far as choosing where to spend their money. Companies can and do operate for years on the suffering of the lower class in particular, often openly doing so, and still make oodles of money.
Firstly, I think it completely aligns with libertarian principles to regulate environmental impact. If a company pollutes the airs and rivers, that physical affects everybody.
Secondly, yeah, it is sad that many consumers will turn a blind eye to poor working conditions and environmental impact … but I do think there is a limit. And honestly, most of the big companies in our nation are making some attempt to improve environmental conditions, probably because they know that some people will stop buying their product if they don’t. It’s not a lot, but I think the fact that it’s happening at all is some proof that companies can certainly be pressured into doing the right thing without legislation.
What I like about the free-ish markets is that it at least gives you a personal choice. If you don’t want to support a business, you don’t have to. It sucks if other people support it, but let’s be honest, if like 50% of the country wants to support a business that you don’t like, then what can you expect?
Yeah the main lesson I’ve taken away from the last decade of cryptocurrency instability, NFTs, and things like algorithmically generated judicial sentencing guidelines that perpetuated the existing racial biases while making them seem more legitimate because “the computer can’t be wrong” is that we should run our whole society with them.
Algocracy uses algorithms to inform societal decisions, while Blockchain is a transparent, decentralized ledger system. People often confuse cryptocurrencies with the underlying Blockchain technology, even though they serve different purposes.
Comparing the challenges of Algocracy to the volatility of cryptocurrencies is like assessing the potential of online commerce based on early internet connectivity issues.
Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design. With meticulous design and continuous oversight, the potential of Algocracy can be fully realized.
Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design.
You can’t design a neutral algorithm. The algorithm has to be designed to optimize something. What that thing is is a political and philosophical decision. Government by algorithm is indirect government by whoever’s values shaped the design of the algorithm.
Algorithms can no doubt assist in regulating systems but they don’t resolve any of the deeper political issues about values, goals and what constitutes improvement.
Of course, tech bros will claim they can sell you a neutral algorithm that will run things better than people, but that’s just because tech bros’ political philosophy is basically “just do it my way because obviously I’m smarter than you.” They won’t even notice how their algorithms are biased, because they’re not even interested in that question.
Surely that citydao wasn’t created by someone with profit motives and not aware that in a few years it will be another worthless and abandoned NFT-bullshit.
The only way for libertarianism to work is if every human had only good intentions. Since that’s simply never going to happen libertarianism will never work. Just my opinion feel free to disagree.
Libertarianism is a theory espoused to those with good intentions by people that have bad intentions.
It doesn’t work for almost anyone. But it super works for some. That’s the point.
The problem is that it doesn’t work even if everyone has good intentions. It needs everyone to agree on what “good intentions” even means.
Also there’s the fact that nearly everybody’s idea of freedom is drastically different and some people’s freedoms infringe on others.
I personally don’t fully agree. Libertarianism just doesn’t work at all. It is not even a complete system from a logical sense. It falls apart when faced with basic scrutiny, or they just theorize a system that’s basically the same as a central government but with a private entity name stamped on it.
It is an ideology stemming from a basic principle, but they sadly don’t seem to think of the entire system as a whole.
I disagree with you.
You’re wrong.
Its like when someone uses human greed as a reason Communism wont work.
Funny how that someone is often the same who assumes humanity is flawless when libertarianism! Could it be that those people are just greedy and selfish hypocrites? Nah!
They’re pretty much similarly utopian but the neat thing is we can work towards both at the same time.
Which is a very uninformed (or intentionally misleading) thing to say, because Communism from it’s very beginning has always assumed that there are bad actors and always will be, hence the whole dictatorship of the proletariat thing.
That’s, to put it mildly, not what that phrase means.
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What do you mean?
The idea (in theory) was that once the proleteriat seizes power, they would act akin to a dictator in ancient Rome, who would be given the extraordinary powers to handle extraordinary circumstances (such as, in this case, the (re)construction of society). It’s not implying totalitarian rule.
It’s also the state power to oppress counter revolutionaries and the former high class, often through violence and forced labour. That to me is a form of dictatorship, even if it does provide better conditions and freedom to much more people than the newly oppressed.
I’m not saying it to praise it or condemn it, I just think it’s a fact at this point.
Communism wont work because it will never be implemented. If a country ever implements true communism it will experience extreme brain drain and be left with only the most unskilled people.
I’m not sure where you got this idea from. I’m not particularly informed on the subject, but when I look up the dictionary definition of communism, I get this:
Emphasis mine. If people with more ability are paid more, then they shouldn’t be flocking out of the country, right?
Why even work hard if you cant spend the money to own something/start a business. What will you spend the money on? The good of humanity? Get out of of here with that bullshit. If my country inplements communism im leaving on a first plane to a place where my skills will benefit me.
My understanding, however limited, is that “property” means something different in this context. Essentially, it means things like real estate and businesses, things that make money. You can own food, clothes, a TV, watches, a car, whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t make money.
If you wanted to start a business, you probably could, and you wouldn’t need to pay for it. The State would own the business, and you would be paid to run that business. This absolves you of all the risk associated with it, and you get paid more than a grocery store shelf stocker because you’re doing a harder job, and thus demonstrating greater ability.
So you’re dependant on the government and can’t (not allowed to) do anything about it. Sounds great. My car can make money, my computer can make money, but i guess im not allowed to do it if big daddy Lenin doesn’t want me to.
People who can will leave in flocks.
But that degrades a person to a child. A child can own a trinket or two, but for anything of real value, there’s mommy and daddy.
Which fits perfectly well with my hypothesis, that the majority of people actually don’t want a government. They want a babysitter to watch over them.
I hear Dubai is looking for day laborers! Im sure the lack of regulations make it a great place for workers!
There are places in the world other than commieland and dubai.
And yet, people are still coming there voluntarily. But that word is missing from the communist dictionary.
The will of a worker is nothing under the communism. It’s always about some abstract mythical collective.
“Communism won’t work because I only work for selfish gain so everyone else must be the same as me. Anyone who says they’d work for non-selfish reasons must be lying because I’m selfish and everyone else must be just like me. And if they set up a society where selfishness wasn’t the main motivator, I’d be out of there to go where I could still be selfish. Therefore communism is bullshit.”
Communist societies have had their problems but this has never been a good argument.
You underestimate how selfish an average human is
It’s ok comrade. Uninformed peoole often says so, but the braindrain in communism has been accouted for. A bit of a barbed wire, some dogs, a few guys with daddy issues and a gun will stop any brains crossing the border. /s
Libertarianism also works if there is information about bad people and good people are free to avoid them.
Freedom of information and freedom of action.
It’s easier to avoid bad people in free markets than it is to prevent them from taking and abusing positions of power in a powerful state.
Except freedom of information and freedom of action are two of the first things to die without regulation. Company towns and crooked newspapers are hallmarks of low-regulation.
It’s easier to vote bad people out of positions of power in a powerful state than it is to prevent them from abusing executive roles in powerful conglomerates.
Love your praying with that last sentence.
Is it still libertarianism if those freedoms don’t exist anymore? I don’t think libertarians argue for no regulations.
Regarding the bad people, the trick is that bad people don’t look bad, much like captured markets offer the illusion of choice. So it’s difficult to vote them out.
The thing is that we argue different moments in development. You compare the correction of the corrupted states whereas I was talking about maintaining the functioning states.
It’s strictly speaking not libertarian, but libertarianism is a left wing ideology and the post is clearly referring to the right wing self-ascribed “libertarians” who do in fact argue against regulations roughly indiscriminately…
I never said it’s easy to vote them out, I said it’s easier than holding corrupt private executives accountable, for the same captured market illusion of choice reasons.
Don’t understand what you’re trying to say in the last part, don’t think your assessment really reflects my goals, sorry.
Sorry for the wrong assessment.
There can be rough “libertarians” but I think most don’t want to dismantle a libertarian state but instead want to create one. A lost opportunity where left and right could meet.
To me, the meme is not clearly right wing because the clown looks like the joker.
Let me shift the last part a bit. Corrupt executives are expected. That’s why freedom is important so that nobody is locked in with them. The same cannot be said for civil servants. As long as a party covers important topics, it can be corrupt in many other areas and voters cannot change anything.
I just don’t see the distinction. Without a government with actual regulatory teeth, those corrupt executives are just as liable to lock people in. Dismantling state power just gives those executives more opportunities to abuse their power. You can’t reduce government and expect private interests to not fill the vacuum. The concept that private executives with no voter accountability would be less corrupt than politicians is wholly ridiculous.
Those executives can also use the state for abuse. It’s easier to get tax money with one government contract than having to sell something to all citizens. Or remember those epi pens. Regulations can be used to massively increase profits.
The point of free markets is that executives can be corrupt. Instead of voting every 5 years, customers can immediately react and buy somewhere else.
You may be right that private interests don’t immediately fill up a government vacuum. With the internet, times may have changed and it could be easy for citizens to coordinate.
It’s just like socialism; great concept, but impossible to perfectly implement. That said, I’d still prefer a system where I maintain independence and freedom than any alternative since humans are inherently are own largest problems.
I’d prefer a system similar to what we have in germany right now as it is a mix of socialism and capitalism in a way that reduces the exploitation that free market capitalism brings. Complete freedom in market almost always leads to exploitation which is terrible
How exactly does Germany reduce exploitation from capitalism? Is it labor laws? I would like to remind you that having social programs and laws that benefit the working class is not socialism.
Maybe saying socialist is an overstatement i just think that our current system is a step in the right direction as there are laws in place to reduce exploitation and improve the situation for workers. It is still very flawed and i think it could be better but there are many places where it is bad, the US for example
Respectfully, I think the opposite. I think, for the most part, a free® market naturally benefits humans with good intentions and harms those with bad intentions.
For example, let’s say in a free market, somebody wanted to start a business with horrible working conditions, horrible salary, horrible everything. Now, if the economy is real bad then people might work there, but for the most part, that business is going to fail because people won’t work there, and would choose other jobs instead. So in this case, a free market actually incentivizes “good intentions”. The business owner will have to improve work conditions, salary, etc. so that people will work there instead of elsewhere.
And one of the important aspects of a free market is the ability to start a competing business. If there was a company with overall poor working conditions and salary, it would highly incentivize someone to start a new company with better conditions, because they could pull in all the workers from the other company.
And look, I’m not saying this is fool proof and works 100% of the time, and I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a healthy amount of regulation. But if you compare this to an economic system where businesses are run by the government, you can simply just be stuck with shitty work conditions and shitty salary, and not be able to do anything about it.
That’s fine to disagree. I used to believe this back when I took Econ classes in college, every Econ professor is a libertarian lmao. I just don’t think a free market would punish bad actors. Tons of people turn a blind eye to anything as long as costs are cheap
That only works when worker are less replaceable and desperate. Their are a lots of open job positions today but most pay less than the cost of living.
Lots of open job positions is very healthy for the economy, it gives the worker the ability to choose, and it makes companies have to compete. A ton of companies are literally being forced to increase their wages in order to get enough employees.
I’m not saying it’s unhealthly I am just saying they don’t help if they don’t pay above the cost of living. Sure you can get a job paying 15 USD but that isn’t even going to cover rent + utilities. So for now your stuck with your job and don’t have the option to switch.
My concern is that “bad product” to the consumer is mostly a matter of price and quality; environmental impact, legality, and even employee safety rank much lower with the average person as far as choosing where to spend their money. Companies can and do operate for years on the suffering of the lower class in particular, often openly doing so, and still make oodles of money.
Firstly, I think it completely aligns with libertarian principles to regulate environmental impact. If a company pollutes the airs and rivers, that physical affects everybody.
Secondly, yeah, it is sad that many consumers will turn a blind eye to poor working conditions and environmental impact … but I do think there is a limit. And honestly, most of the big companies in our nation are making some attempt to improve environmental conditions, probably because they know that some people will stop buying their product if they don’t. It’s not a lot, but I think the fact that it’s happening at all is some proof that companies can certainly be pressured into doing the right thing without legislation.
What I like about the free-ish markets is that it at least gives you a personal choice. If you don’t want to support a business, you don’t have to. It sucks if other people support it, but let’s be honest, if like 50% of the country wants to support a business that you don’t like, then what can you expect?
That’s where operating it using Algocracy comes in.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_by_algorithm
https://www.citydao.io/
Yeah the main lesson I’ve taken away from the last decade of cryptocurrency instability, NFTs, and things like algorithmically generated judicial sentencing guidelines that perpetuated the existing racial biases while making them seem more legitimate because “the computer can’t be wrong” is that we should run our whole society with them.
Sure.
Algocracy uses algorithms to inform societal decisions, while Blockchain is a transparent, decentralized ledger system. People often confuse cryptocurrencies with the underlying Blockchain technology, even though they serve different purposes.
Comparing the challenges of Algocracy to the volatility of cryptocurrencies is like assessing the potential of online commerce based on early internet connectivity issues.
Biases in Algocracy are the result of poor design. With meticulous design and continuous oversight, the potential of Algocracy can be fully realized.
You can’t design a neutral algorithm. The algorithm has to be designed to optimize something. What that thing is is a political and philosophical decision. Government by algorithm is indirect government by whoever’s values shaped the design of the algorithm.
Algorithms can no doubt assist in regulating systems but they don’t resolve any of the deeper political issues about values, goals and what constitutes improvement.
Of course, tech bros will claim they can sell you a neutral algorithm that will run things better than people, but that’s just because tech bros’ political philosophy is basically “just do it my way because obviously I’m smarter than you.” They won’t even notice how their algorithms are biased, because they’re not even interested in that question.
Yeah I might have oversimplified about ten steps there.
It’s an iterative process.
Tech bros 4 life.
they tryna put the government on Web3.0 crying laughing emoji skull emoji
Surely that citydao wasn’t created by someone with profit motives and not aware that in a few years it will be another worthless and abandoned NFT-bullshit.
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